'Deborah Norville Tonight' for August 9 Rich Ream, Dr. Dan Fischer, Mark Shurtleff, Scott Stewart, Drew Pinsky, Gregg Olsen

Deborah Norville MSNBC TV

ANNOUNCER: DEBORAH NORVILLE TONIGHT. DEBORAH NORVILLE, HOST: The lost boys, raised in a polygamist community, now they‘ve been kicked out, 400 young boys suddenly forced to fend on their own. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE They simply knock on their door and take them and let them off in the desert. (END VIDEO CLIP) NORVILLE: Some as young as 13. And wait until you hear why. Tonight, exclusive, one of polygamy‘s darkest secrets. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Terrifying, absolutely terrifying. (END VIDEO CLIP) ANNOUNCER: From studio 3K in Rockefeller Center, Deborah Norville. And good evening, everybody. Imagine you‘re as young as 13 years old and you‘re being kicked out of your home, told to leave your community with nothing more than the clothes on your back, nowhere to go, no food to eat. Well, that‘s what‘s happening right now in the twin border cities of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona. That‘s the home of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which broke away from the main church several decades ago. There are more polygamists living in those two cities than anywhere in America, upwards of 10,000. And an estimated 400 boys and young men have been kicked out of the fundamentalist church in the past six years for such transgressions as talking to girls, exposing their arms on hot summer days, or simply watching movies. The sect is led by Warren Jeffs, a reclusive self-proclaimed prophet who‘s believed to have himself at least 75 wives. It is a fiercely closed society, where outsiders are shunned. But since last January, allegations of sexual abuse of children and child abuse have come to light as members, both men and women, have left the community. And now there are new revelations of forced expulsion from the community of hundreds of boys. Why? Well, some charge that it‘s one way of getting rid of young men who could be considered competition for older men hoping to marry young girls. Joining me tonight exclusively to shed some light on this secretive society is Rich Ream. Rich was expelled from the community when he was 20 years old. Also with us tonight, Dr. Dan Fischer, a former member of the polygamist church who left 12 years ago. He‘s the founder of the Diversity Foundation, a group which helps boys who‘ve been expelled from the church. And I thank you both for being with us. Rich, I want to start with you first. What did you do to get kicked out of the group? RICH REAM, EXPELLED FROM POLYGAMIST COMMUNITY : Well, that‘s actually an extremely long story, but to make it short, as we have limited air time, I was found to be in violation of several of their extremely strict rules of lifestyle. To cite a few - association with the opposite sex, consuming alcohol, using tobacco products - fairly normal teenager behavior. NORVILLE: And how did you find out that you were persona non grata, that you were being kicked out? What did they actually do, put you in a truck and just haul you out of town? REAM: Oh, no. Absolutely not. When it first came to the attention of the church authorities that I was in violation of some of their rules, I was called in for an interview with Warren Jeffs, at which point, he placed me on what he referred to as probation. And I was to have regular contact with him once weekly, if I recall correctly. And at some point, I was to - if he decided I was worthy of being reinstated in the church, then I could be re-baptized and reinstated in the priesthood structure of the church. NORVILLE: And you didn‘t pass inspection, I guess, weren‘t considered worthy and were given your walking papers? REAM: More or less, yes. That‘s what happened. I had several more visits with him, and each time I would talk to him, he would ask me what I had been doing, and if I spoke of anything that wasn‘t becoming to his rules and criteria there, I would be rebuked for it again. And eventually, when it came down to it, he finally told me the society had no use for me. NORVILLE: And so you‘re told to leave town. What skills did you have? What education did you have? How were you going to be able to make your way in the outside society? REAM: Well, I‘m thankful that I have always had very good survival skills. I‘ve got a strong back and two good hands. I‘ve always been able to make my living somehow, whatever it took to do it. I‘m experienced in several phases of home construction. I currently hold a job driving a truck. I‘ve done that for the past four years, and that‘s what I was doing at the time I was expelled, as well. NORVILLE: And Dr. Fischer, I gather the story that Rich describes is one that you‘ve heard many, many times over. DR. DAN FISCHER, HELPS BOYS EXPELLED FROM POLYGAMIST COMMUNITIES: Yes, we‘ve heard stories like Rich‘s. We‘ve heard stories that are more tragic than Richard‘s. One that comes to mind, a 15-year-old who was approached by his father - and tragically, this was a stepfather. This society has destroyed about 160 families within the last few years, so it was a stepfather who was interacting with him, and at age 15, told him he had three hours to be out of town. He could pack his bags, and he had to find his own way out, but he was not welcome back on UEP property, which is the property owned by FLDS church. NORVILLE: And what was this kid‘s transgression? And does it mirror what Rich was describing - smoking and, you know, drinking beer or whatever? FISCHER: Yes. Most of the transgressions can be less than smoking and drinking beer. In fact, looking at movies is a transgression, and that means G or PG movies. It means talking to someone of the opposite sex. It can be a number of issues. It can even be playing sports. Sports has been outlawed in this community. Holidays are outlawed. There becomes so many opportunities for transgressions to occur that it‘s absurd. NORVILLE: We know that about a week ago Saturday, you led a group of these young boys on the steps of the state capitol to publicize this situation. And a couple of those boys came forward and talked about what their feelings were like when they, like Rich, like the boy you mentioned, were told to leave. Here‘s just a short sampling of what some of them had to say. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TOM STEED, EXCOMMUNICATED FROM POLYGAMIST SECT: It took a good year (UNINTELLIGIBLE) contemplating suicide and such. And I believe all of these other children go through that, at some point. GILBERT, EXCOMMUNICATED FROM POLYGAMIST SECT: It‘s hard to get away from something you‘ve known your whole life. (END VIDEO CLIP) NORVILLE: The first boy said he contemplated suicide, and it took him almost a year to get over that. Help us understand, because you were once a part of this community, why being told to leave is such a traumatic experience for these young boys. REAM: That‘s a very good question, and it goes to the basis upon which the society exists. We all have been raised as what is described as “calves in the stall.” That means that you were spoon-fed everything that you were to know. You look at where it‘s evolved to today, where television is outlawed, news is controlled. Most families play a couple hours of Warren‘s monotone sermons daily. It is a brainwashing of such proportions that you are indoctrinated that the rest of the world is to be destroyed, you‘ll go to hell. Now, from a practical sense, one of the greatest controls is the reality that in these two border towns, the FLDS, the UEP, owns all of the homes, all of the property. They own the businesses. The families today, the fathers today know that if they are not totally obedient to Warren, they can have their own families destroyed. Their wives and children are taken. The husbands are sent out of town. Many within days have their wives remarried to other men with the children. NORVILLE: Well, let me ask before we bring in our next guest, are some of these boys being pushed out of the community as a means of control of the parents of these young men? FISCHER: I‘m not sure I understand your question. NORVILLE: In other words, We‘re going to kick your kid out as a way of making sure that you toe the line. FISCHER: That can be part of it. Certainly, there‘s other ways to have these parents toe the line. Many of the parents, I‘m sure, can feel bad when told - when instructed to kick their children out, but they know they must or they will lose their families, their homes. There are other parents who are in synch with Warren and feel it‘s the right thing to do to expel their children. NORVILLE: Also joining our discussion is Flora Jessup. She‘s a child abuse advocate who has helped many young girls escape the polygamist community. She also was a former polygamist wife who herself escaped from polygamy 18 years ago. Ms. Jessup, you‘ve been on the program before, and I remember you telling me that this wasn‘t religion, this was terrorism. The story of what these boys are going through very much mirrors what you‘ve been doing with young girls. FLORA JESSUP, ESCAPED FROM POLYGAMIST COMMUNITY: Yes, it does. NORVILLE: And why does it continue? Why in 2004 is this kind of activity able to happen? JESSUP: I don‘t know. It‘s - it‘s continuing because we don‘t have the enforcement in place and the steps in place to help the people that do want out. NORVILLE: And one of the problems in these communities, Ms. Jessup, is that the local law enforcement are very much a part of the religious community. JESSUP: Yes. NORVILLE: In other words, they take their orders less from the statutes on the books, it‘s been alleged, than from the gentleman who runs the group. JESSUP: Yes. NORVILLE: Can you explain how that works? JESSUP: You‘ve got a law enforcement set-up in the community that is actually being used to punish - a lot of the young boys have had run-ins with the law enforcement up there, and it‘s because of the - on the orders of the leaders of the FLDS. NORVILLE: We‘re going to take a short break. By the way, we‘ve had an ongoing request for months for sect leader Warren Jeffs to come on the program. Up until now, he has not responded to any of our requests. We‘ll take a break. More with our guests. And when we come back, Utah attorney general Mark Shurtleff will join us. We‘ll ask him why this continues to happen, the same question we‘ve been asking, even though polygamy is illegal. And we‘ll also look at the fact that he has volunteered to mentor one of the boys expelled from the community. Back in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) NORVILLE: Hundreds of boys have been expelled from Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona, the twin polygamist cities dominated by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Mark Shurtleff is Utah‘s attorney general. He is vowing to prosecute sexual abuse and welfare fraud within those polygamist communities. He‘s also signed up to mentor one of the expelled boys. He joins us, along with Rich Ream, who was expelled when he was 20 years old, Dr. Fischer, a former polygamist and founder of the Diversity Foundation, a group which helps these boys, and Flora Jessup, a child abuse advocate who‘s helped young girls escape from the polygamist community. She also is a former polygamist wife who escaped from the community herself 18 years ago. Mr. Attorney General, I got to ask you, if there‘s a 13-year-old kid who‘s been given the heave-ho by his parents, aren‘t those parents breaking the law and shouldn‘t they be arrested? MARK SHURTLEFF, UTAH ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think they are, Deborah. And we have to understand the desperate nature of hundreds of boys. We are just trying to identify them now. We first were made aware of the numbers of boys about a year ago. We‘re trying to find out who truly has been kicked out. Some of the boys have run away. We need to make sure we follow the law. But I hope your viewers understand how horrible the situation is for these boys. I mean, they are truly lost when not only are they cast into a society that they are ill prepared to deal with, with little or no education, and having been told that everybody - all authorities, all social service providers are evil, that they‘re of the devil and they‘re not to trust them, and so - and in addition to that, they‘ve lost their faith, so they are completely without rudder and without hope. NORVILLE: Tell me about the boy that you‘ve agreed to take under your wing. What‘s his story? SHURTLEFF: Well, we‘re still working on which boy is best suited for my situation and how I can help. There are so many that we want to be able to help. I am the chairman of the Utah Mentoring Network, which is there to try and provide help for at-risk kids. And now we have hundreds of boys who need not only financial support, they need a friend, they need a mentor. They need a guide. They need somebody to help them with their education. We are talking in the future, hopefully, once we have enough people signed up, to maybe have some people do foster care and maybe even adopt down the road. Right now, it‘s time to get names of people who - all over this country who are willing to help out these boys, is to call and get ahold of Dan Fischer‘s organization... NORVILLE: Right. We‘re going to give the phone number at the end of the segment so that people have a chance to do that. What I don‘t understand is why does it take so long? If this came to your attention a year ago and you had several dozens of boys a week ago on the steps of the state house there in Salt Lake City, what do you need to know in order to go knock on the door or the gate of that community and say, Mr. Jeffs and all these other parents out there, you‘ve got some ‘splaining to do? SHURTLEFF: Yes. First of all, we need to get the boys to be willing to talk to us. Some of them... NORVILLE: And these boys we‘re looking at on television are unwilling to talk? SHURTLEFF: Many of them are. They‘re still afraid. You see on television many of them still hiding their faces. Only a few are coming forward. They will talk to Dan. They see him as... NORVILLE: Right. SHURTLEFF: ... somebody of their group. But coming to us and speaking with us and getting the help that they need, they‘re hesitant. But some of the boys now, who have been in my office and spoken with me, have talked to the other boys and said, Hey, you can trust this guy. He is there trying to help out. We need to be able to put the services in place. Bottom line is the state of Utah, state of Arizona, we‘re not prepared to be able to handle these boys. That‘s why the call to the community. NORVILLE: Rich, what are the other boys saying? You‘ve had a chance to talk to a lot of these kids and hear about their fears their and reluctance to share their facts with the state authorities. REAM: Well, as far as the other boys go, the ones that I have had close contact with, it‘s exactly as Mr. Shurtleff already stated. They don‘t trust government agencies. They don‘t trust the law enforcement. And as far as not trusting law enforcement and government goes, that‘s a product of the society they were raised in, as well. For example, just to cite a quick example, you have - or your parents are beating on you, so you call the local police force, and they show up and have a few words with your father and leave, and nothing‘s ever done about it, so it happens again. They have absolutely no trust in our government or society in general, and you can‘t blame someone for failing to trust something they are so new to and so entirely unfamiliar with. NORVILLE: Dr. Fischer, you used to be a part of this community, and I know you left about a dozen years ago. Why did you leave? FISCHER: Well, it was principally because I could see it deteriorating at such a rapid rate. It is a different society than it was when I was there. We - we‘ve seen tragic issues ahead when they became apocalyptic. They started preaching that the world was going to end in the year 2000, that, in fact, they had to reach a perfected level which would entitle them to be lifted up at a certain spot arranged by the prophet. They would be lifted up, and the rest of North America would be destroyed. This has been used for a fear tactic. It continues to be used as a fear tactic. There‘s been many dates identified since the year 2000. These dates come and go... NORVILLE: Right. FISCHER: ... and they reset dates. NORVILLE: You know, what I don‘t understand - I mean, Ms. Jessup has used the term “terrorists,” and we talk about terrorism now with al Qaeda and they talk about trying to infiltrate the terrorist cells. Dr. Fischer, how hard would it be for someone in Mr. Shurtleff‘s law enforcement arena to go undercover, to become a part of this community, and get the goods, if indeed laws are being broken and children are at risk and families are in danger, to go in and make the case and put an end to this alleged behavior? SHURTLEFF: Just your question demonstrates the challenge. Namely, this society is a cloistered society which, from the prophet of the ‘30s, were instructed that they should raise their people. They do not, as a rule, take in converts. It would be near impossible for anyone to enter and join the society. It is a society which has evolved losing our gorgeous American freedoms in steps each decade since the ‘40s, the ‘50s, and now find themselves in a virtual Taliban-like condition with virtual Taliban-like leadership. NORVILLE: And Flora Jessup, let me go to you now. Given the things that Dr. Fischer has said and that you‘ve expressed, as well, on this program, how are young ladies and young men within the community getting information about life on the outside, that it‘s not to be feared, or do they simply not get that word? JESSUP: They don‘t get - well, they‘re taught - whatever they‘re taught in the community is that - that‘s what they know. They don‘t know anything other than what they‘re being told because there‘s no outside influences being allowed in. NORVILLE: All right. We‘re going to let that be the last word. Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, you mentioned that there is an address that people can get in touch with, a phone number. We‘re going to show that in just a moment. And will you come back on, sir, when you‘ve got some arrests to make, and tell us about them? SHURTLEFF: Absolutely. I‘d be delighted to. We‘re hoping for that. NORVILLE: All right. Attorney General Shurtleff, Flora Jessup, Rich Ream, we wish you lots of luck, and the other young men you‘re working with. And Dr. Fischer, good luck to you, as well. By the way, if you do want some more information on how you could play a role in helping some of these displaced boys you‘ve heard about, you can contact the Diversity Foundation. Their toll-free number, 1-877-GET-A-DAD.

MSNBC TV Transcripts Originally aired Monday, August 9, 2004

Back

For more information email: